Been a busy few weeks, lots of jobs in and out and progress made on the more long term jobs. The good news is, as we clear out these jobs, the new Dakota Kits are eminent!
Just wrapped up a Vintage Air install on Ron Shives’ 1957 Chevy Hardtop. Such a nice car, we removed the AirTique unit installed a decade or more ago that never quite worked properly and installed a new Vintage Air sure-fit unit. In went a Vintage Air Front Runner package and radiator relocation to the 6 cylinder position so that we had room for a Volvo 850 two speed cooling fan. We also upgraded to a Borgeson Delphi 600 power steering box, Flaming River steering column and did some routine maintenance for him. Overall the car turned out fantastic, very nice daily driver now.
Dr Marvelus is going to town on Tony’s 60 Bonneville, pretty rusty car in all the structural areas, so look for updates on that soon.
Larry Ivy’s 34 PU is roller status, cab goes on and the controls are going in soon.
More importantly, Bob’s 32 5W chassis will be going together next week in preparation for the Deuce Day show. We are doing the second build out of our “Bolt – In” center X-member! These will be available in the store very soon.
And the news you are waiting for, the Dakota kits are in process as soon as Bob’s 32 frame comes off. First up will be the 65-66 frames and the 53-56 and 57-60’s immediately after.
Latest out of the shop is Ray Castor’s 1957 Oldsmobile. Ray brought us this car last year just before we got really deep into the 51 Chevy PU For Metro AA. It initially came in for some front suspension work. As we are to understand this car was purchased from Desert Valley Auto, same guys with the TV Show. It had already been sand blasted, painted and subframed with an early 80’s GM full-size clip. Most likely an Oldsmobile because ray told us it had an Olds 455 in it. He found a 1958 Olds 371 J2 engine and trans, had it rebuilt and installed by yet another shop. The problem came when he went to put his tires on it, they didn’t fit under the fenderwell very well at all. The tires actually stuck outside the fenders by a half inch or so and the front crossmember was less than 2″ off the ground.
So the first thing to determine was what condition the car was in and what we could do to fix the botched front clip installation. On tear down things became very evident that the persons installing the clip made more than a few mistakes besides choosing the wrong clip for the car.
The entire clip besides being mounted very low on the chassis, was off center a bit and the right side spindle was a full inch behind where it should be as well as being a few degrees off, lower on the Left side. You can see just how high the engine was placed in the chassis. So high in fact that the installer trimmed the upper webbing out of the center X member for transmission clearance. The wobbly engine mounts were pretty comical too. It was about at this point we realized just how hard of a hit this car had taken at some point. There was evidence of a fairly severe diagonal in the whole car.
Next move was to get it on the chassis table and square it up, then start the decision making on what to repair this car with. Of all the choices available, one stood out as something new for me to try. The late 70’s to mid 80’s Jaguar XJ sedan. My friend Scott Zekanis did a similar installation on his 1957 Buick sedan a few years back and has had good success with it. I did my research and found that the Oldsmobile is less than 100 pounds heavier than the Jaguar and had very similar weight distribution. Plus the track width was in the range we were looking for. The stock Olds front had to be close to 59″ wide. The rear axle was right on the money at 59″ so it stands to reason at this point in automotive history that the track widths matched, that and a bit of careful tape measuring and internet sleuthing.
A few phone calls and internet searches, I had myself a line on a 1985 Jaguar XJ6 Vanden Plas. Nice enough car and the price was more than good. Time to strip both cars down, Ray made the decision to use both the front and rear suspensions from the Jaguar (good choice!) as the rear axle in this car was also an unknown. It was stock but if the car was wrecked pretty bad, there might be issues with bent axles or what not. Besides, it just made perfect sense to do a fully independent suspension. Brian and Dr Marvelus AirArced the front clip off after locking the car to the table and Brian and I also disassembled the front and rear subframes from the Jag.
Pressure washed clean and time to start figuring out how to make this all work. This was more work that any of us figured. Still not sure if dropping the engine out the bottom was a good choice or not. Regardless, it came apart and the suspension was pretty decent.
Old clip off, Jaguar front mocked into place, I made my measurements and drew up new frame rails in my 3D software. Made the decision to use as much of the stock Jaguar suspension components as possible. This meant also rubber mounting the front and rear suspensions to give the old Olds the best ride quality possible.
One of the things that was going to make this a difficult build was the owners insisting on keeping the Factory AC and heaters in place. If you will notice the large black box where we would normally hang a power booster from, that is the AC Evaporator case. This didn’t cause us problems for the frame and engine placement.
Front end finished to a stopping point, we turned our attention to the rear suspension. It really surprised us how well the whole Jaguar IRS fit while still in it’s cage. I determined that to rubber mount the stock Jaguar rear cage, a section of frame rail would need to be replaced and a bit of the trunk floor coped in for the new bit of frame rail.
The stock Jaguar trailing arms are critical if you intend on rubber mounting the cage like we did here. If you leave them out you will get some serious tire shake or worse. We also installed this rear axle with 3º of pinion up which goes against all the internet experts out there. I am not willing to just follow trends, so actual investigation went into doing this. The three degrees up not only allowed for a better driveline angle for our universal joints, it also gave us a tiny bit of anti-squat! Yeah, traction is cool!
The wrap up was fairly boring stuff, rush to finish meant the camera phone was in my office out of harms way for the most part. We had a custom made radiator done, rebuilt the core support, ran brake lines, installed a hydroboost system with the stock Jaguar master cylinder under the floor, built an exhaust system that snaked it’s way through everything and made engine brackets to hold the air compressor and alternator properly. Didn’t get any final pictures before it left, but if you attend the Goodguys shows, you are likely to run into this car.
The little bit I got to drive the car was pretty darned cool. Very smooth, very controlled. I think once Ray gets the engine and transmission sorted out, he is going to have one hell of a daily driver on his hands. You can say I am a believer in the Jag conversions. Not an easy job compared to other popular choices out there, but for an ambitious home installer or a customer that wants pretty much the best of comfort and good handling this is a solid choice.
Been a long and difficult journey to get here but it’s finally ready to leave.
SamIam wanted to move on, it served it’s purpose and was ready for the next chapter in life. There were plenty on the HAMB who wanted to see the car preserved for the ages, only problem was it needed so much attention to be a useable car. If it were to be preserved, it would have had limited use. Miles and I share the same philosophy on cars, they are cars first and if they don’t work then make them work.
Please don’t think I’m putting down Sam, I’m not. But the car was rough and Miles did his level best to try and make it work for him. But as we all know that no two men have the same vision on practically anything, it applies here. Miles and I sat down and talked about our vision of what to do. The controversy started Miles decided to ditch the cut down 23 T coupe body for a 27 body I had. The frame was shaky and needed some attention other chassis bits too, the rear was broken and needed to be rebuilt, the super cool SamOram intake needed some machine work to get it sealed to the heads and so on. As we took the car apart we laid out a plan to get things sorted out and formed a whole new car using the majority of the components.
Here is the photo album, enjoy the build process over the last few years.
The story goes like this, Mr Funk called my sidekick Dr Marvelus on a late Friday night just after picking his “Rat Rod Hudson” from another shop here in town. Mr Funk was pleased as punch to get it on the road after his two year build process and many foldable greenbacks, but was absolutely terrified by what he now owned. The good Dr told him to bring it in Saturday morning.
What showed up on my doorstep may just be……. I digress. On with the story.
Lets back up a few hours, yes hours.
Upon picking up his car, the owner at Puerile Customs told Mr Funk to take it easy, don’t go out on the highway and learn the car because its a bit of a handful. Mr Puerile assured Mr Funk that the car was sound and he “stood by” his work. By Mr Funk’s account this car needed your undivided attention 100%, no taking your eyes off the road even for a second to look at the oil pressure or temp gauges. He was uneasy but had no major complaints as he drove his car home. Enjoying his conveyance it was time to hit the local, ahem, pub. Mr Funk recounted a tale of showing off his new joy to some colleagues and after some good natured ribbing and displays of encouragement, Mr Funk stepped on the gas and the trouble began.
The car careened in an uncontrollable manner and started the dreaded “death wobble” with the brakes applied at maximum sphincter gripping pressures, nothing happened. No control, four lanes of traffic were crossed before the car came to rest. Now terrified, Mr Funk made the call to Dr Marvelus.
And so, this is what landed at my doorstep.
Initial inspection, the drastic negative Ackerman, Model A wheels and steering location warranted a closer inspection. There was quite a lot to take in. Someone had obviously spent some time trying to produce something that would stagger its onlookers.
This car is definitely not HAMB material. Certainly not worthy of our notice. A breed that deserves our disdain and upturned noses. However there is a lesson to be learned here, an example needs to be made of those who have wronged Mr Funk and an opportunity for myself and Dr Marvelus to showcase our finely tuned skills and abilities.
Let me bore you with the intricate details of this so called “rat rod” shall we?
This first set of pictures is from my initial inspection, all I was truly concerned with was the condition of the front suspension and why it had the guidance system similar to that of a Scud Missile.
The first thing to draw my eye was the steering linkage, made up from pipe wrenches and connecting rods with a few machined bits thrown in for good measure. The steering box is a Saginaw 525 possibly from a Jeep because it takes 6.5 turns from lock to lock. The box mounted on studs just aft of the radiator were not sleeved. The holes were near edges and the plates were not fully welded. The steering shaft back to the steering wheel consisted of welded couplers, universal joints and a stub shaft from a VW bug mounted in a single bushing hanging from the dash. No substantial support left the steering wheel a bit flaccid. I apologize for letting that tidbit escape my camera’s eye.
If you would take notice, the welds holding the pipe wrench to the steering system in the above pictures. Notice how over temp and undercut the welds are.
I broke that bit off with a two foot prybar and about 30 pounds of force.
The next bit of bother was the tie rod. Most of you fine chaps know that mounting the tie rod out ahead of the axle is not always the best solution to your problems. However when building a “rat rod” getting the car as low as possible is your only concern. This means placing the front beam axle ahead of the radiator. This not only allows the lower tank of the radiator to be as low as possible, but also nudges the front axle out for at least another foot of wheelbase. This leaves the problem of what to do with the tie rod. Behind the axle is an issue as it interferes with the radiator and it’s rakish angle so your best bet is to flip the steering arms around front. If Mr Puerile had known about the work done by Mr Rudolph Akerman he could have avoided this folly into a steering system that caused the vehicle to push so severely that turning the wheel to full lock had a turning radius somewhat inside that of the Queen Mary.
The steering arms you see are most likely from a 1953-1956 Ford F100. Wait for the more creative uses of more of this donor vehicle.
Not truly concerned with the air spring mountings or any of the other gear, Mr Funk and I agreed to a figure and the vehicle was left to me. I pulled the vehicle inside my shop. It took me 20 minutes to achieve this due to the small 8′ door and 90º turn to enter the shop.
I shut the doors late Saturday night and left the little Hudson to think about where it had been. On the following Monday when I opened the doors and flicked on the lights the little Hudson greeted me by pops and creaks. It was resting firmly on the ground and the air pressure in its scuba tanks was at naught, but still, the suspension was so bound up that it continued to settle over 24 hours later.
The entire air system would not hold pressure for more than 20 minutes. In fact, it leaked so badly that it needed adjustment every 5 minutes or so just to maintain altitude.
And on to that. In adjusting the suspension from drivable to flat on the floor was not even remotely smooth. It did take a considerable amount of time to build up enough pressure to overcome the sticktion of the suspension mountings. And it was not easy to replicate the driving position. Dr Marvelus and I donned our handschuhes and went to work.
We found many things awry, the connecting rod bell crank system was merely hand tight, without any manner to keep the Grade 5 bolt in place that acted as the pivot. No inner sleeves, no bearings or bushes. We now know just some of what caused all the creaks and moans.
During dissasembly we notices several of the “welds” were poorly executed and were already showing cracks. The problems were mounting up and the agreement I made with Mr Funk were starting to fall out of favor with me. But a deal was struck and I needed to stick to it.
As the dismemberment went on and I was cooking up a plan on how to save this car for Mr Funk more exciting fabrication work was found. The good Dr and I assume that this car was concepted and built by stacking items against each, on the floor, other until pleasing to the eye then scraps of metal and what ever was lying about were used to make connections between the aforementioned items.
I reviewed what lay before me with the intent on just trying to fix what was here to make the Scud-Hud safe and reliable but was stymied at every turn. I could not find a frame or fitment satisfactory. My options were dwindling and knew I was just wasting time and energy. I decided that everything forward of the cowl was a lost cause. Nothing save for the brakes, spindles, HEIM joints and air springs themselves were about the only items worth salvation.
I went through quite a process to create a whole new front section of frame. I was unsastisfied with the look and condition of the 1941 Ford front I-beam axle and decided to trade Mr Funk one of my standard Model A axles. I also wanted to improve the pedigree of the old rat to a more upright citizen of the motoring kind. This meant standing the radiator and shell proper upright and rearranging a few items bringing the car into fine shape rather than the slough it was mimicking.
Firing up my digital computing machine and manipulating my figments the new front end started to grow on my screen. New formed frame rails with giant speed holes to help shrink the overall visual size of this car, it is rather large. I also placed a facsimile of the Model A axle and placed new connecting links and “batwings” to hold all the various bits in place as “traditionally” as possible given the circumstances.
Rumaging through my pile of cast offs I found a set of Delco Lovejoy shocks from the rear of a 1938 Cadillac that were in fine sporting condition and though they would be a very nice addition to the front of the Scud-Hud. As the car had no shocks front or back and the nature of the “suicide” mounted front mounted axle tends to not be friendly to airplane shocks. The long lever shocks could be mounted on the flanks of the frame rails with their spindly arms reaching forward to the axle.
My intent was to clean the lines of the new front frame section and draw your eyes away from the tidbits that were visually unappealing. The placement of the Cadillac engine afforded me just a bit of space behind the engine mounts to create a location for mounting the somewhat repulsive air springs. To connect the axle to the air springs I created a shaft and lever system mounted on bearings. This gave the appearance of torsion bars, a much more accepted look to the discerning Trad-Rodder.
Just installing simple levers did not satisfy my visual intent and did not articulate the air spring properly. I tipped the air springs outboard by 30º and created an unequal length and nonparallel linkage system that pushes the top of the air spring reasonably close to the the 30º line the air springs are mounted on and this also gave me the opportunity to use longer bellcranks for the leverage ratio I wanted. As an added bonus, I could install a polyurethane bumpstop under the upper control link and make it adjustable if needed to prevent the newly built vehicle from actually touching the pavement.
The clevises used in the four link bars are common rod ends available from my favorite hardware dispensary, McMaster-Carr. The ends are attached to the fabricated “batwings” using large shoulder bolts and PEEK plastic bushings That allow rotation in one plane. Using a HEIM on this end would not work properly as the weight of the car is going to be hanging from the batwing and a few inches aft of the axle. There will be forces to pull the batwings inboard, this arrangement of connection will hamper this action.
While I was designing the save for the front half of Mr Funk’s Scud-Hud, he had a conversation with Dr Marvelus about repairing the less than satisfactory body panels and possibly taking care of a few more items on the car. I was waiting for materials and supplies to show up so in order to keep things moving along, the good Dr Marvelus sheared up some sheet steel and went banging away.
As the materials showed up, I processed the solid model drawings I had made into a language understood by my plasma machine. Cut the parts and started to assemble the individual components to make up the front clip.
I spend some time machining tubes to accept the bearings of the lift shafts and securely welding them into my motor mount/air spring structure and radiator core support.
And Dr Marvelus attacked the rear with a new apron to cover the Scud-Hud’s neither regions.
More parts added into the mix and the front half of the frame is taking shape. The four bars are fabricated using 1.25″ X .125 DOM steel tube for the uppers. The 1″ clevis at the front and the salvaged 3/4″ HEIM at the rear. The lowers are 1″ X .125 DOM steel tube with a 3/4″ clevis at the front and a 5/8″ HEIM at the rear. The linkages connecting links from the shaft bellcrank and guide link have bronze bushings and sleeves to allow free but controlled movement. The front of the lift shafts are connected to the batwings using standard 1.75″ spring shackles.
The day came and the Scud-Hud was to become a bit more Sir and a bit less Rat. Dr Marvelus and I scuttled the Hud from the two post lift to the fabrication table and continued to centerline and level the Hud out. Clamping it to the table we realized how out of square the frame was, twisted and deformed. The engine and trans were pulled from the solid mounts and the cutting began. The weld slime was removed and the remaining frame chunks were trimmed to a reasonable size and condition for me to attach my new front frame section to.
Mr Funk asked me to inspect every element of the car to ascertain the proper function and serviceability. While assembling the front suspension to set up the new steering arms, I needed to remove the brake rotors from the spindles. Upon pulling the dust caps I found blacked grease. I am familiar with the type of grease, it was Lucas Red Tacky and was gritty and burned. Not only that I noticed there was not a tang-washer in sight! This was a disc brake kit ordered directly from Speedway Motors and I would be a bit dismayed that the kit did not come with one. Regardless of whether it was supplied or not, there was a machined and zinc plated spacer between the outer bearing and the spindle nut.
I inspected the bearings, there was a liberal amount of grease applied to the spindle stud but superficial amounts were packed into the big end of the rollers. It also appeared as if the protective coatings the bearings were shipped with was not removed and this contaminated the bearing grease. Moving on from that, I fitted the king pins to the new Model A axle and modified the Speedway caliper brackets to work with the CE bolt on steering arms and cut and threaded a proper tie rod.
It was about this time when I realized what type of vehicle these RadRodsters are trying to emulate, I think they are enamored with the Fuel Coupe but just miss the mark by a bit.
It was about this point where Mr Funk reached his ultimate frustration with the Scud-Hud. He wanted Dr Marvelus and I to remove the silly ammo box wiring control system, seats and expanded metal drive shaft tunnel to get the floor out. At the same time to investigate why the rear axle was offset to right by over an inch.
What we found made us quicken our pace at deconstruction. There was literally everything from a dollars worth of Nickles to exhaust U-bends, Rebar, All Thread and multiple layers of scrap metal that made up the floor. All manner of square tubing and plate was used to weld the rotten body to the frame. Two flex plates copped it for the seat mounts and they were cut in half so haphazardly that who I assume was Mr Puerile that had done this work, filled over a 1/2″ gap with MIG weld to attache the half flex plated to the 16 gauge sheet metal floor.
Now we were getting down to the meat of the matter. Just how so much of this car got off track and why so much was out of square. The frame rails were tapered, narrower at the front than the back under the body. However, the builder squared the crossmember tubes to the right side frame rail making the cross beams not square to the centerline of the car. This mistake was further compounded in the rear kick up that supported the entire triangulated four link system. While the brackets were close to correct on the axle, the frame they were attached to were not.
My judgement was to cut the rear kick up off and the last rear cross beam and try to rebuild the frame from there back. After deconstruction it was clear that there was no saving what was left without many hours of laborious work and for little gain. It all had to go. Out came the Air-Arc to remove my clip from what was left of the sorry frame.
Back to the computer for me. I had to construct a simple and cost effective frame that would actually work well with what I had already created but didn’t rupture Mr Funk’s wallet. I also needed to reuse as much of what already existed and keep it all under the envelope of the body. I regret my decision (you will see later) but the end result works quite well and Dr Marvelus and I can finally cut this project short and get back to repairing.
I chose a triangulated rear four link system with a air spring mount that keeps the end caps of the bellows parallel to each other.
While doing my set up for the upper bars of the four link system I found the last bit of rubbish I had to deal with. While the lower fourbar/coilover brackets were at least centered on the housing, they were not clocked properly. The right side bracket was at least 15º forward of the left side. This pushed the rear axle back over 1/2″ on the right. They had to come off.
The lower bars of the rear four link are a bit complex, but considering what I am going to ask of them they will need to be heavy duty. The sides consist of 10 gauge Cold Rolled steel plate, machined bushings and a length of 1.25″ CR Bar threaded with 3/4″ 16 on the end to accept the Heavy duty HEIM end. Then the rest of the assembly came together rather quickly. Upper bar and bellows mounts, and damper strut mountings.
I reversed a Corvette steering gear I had lying about and attached it to a mount sprouting out the back of the left front frame horn and then fabricated a new steering arm to finish up the front. A set of engine mounts and transmission pad to tie up all the loose ends before disassemblely and final weld out of the frame.
Off the table and onto the floor for another mock up. This time with the new wheels and tires, no adapters and a whole new attitude. These last few shots are without the bumpstops in place, so yes, the frame can touch the ground. With the stops in place it cannot.
There is still quite a bit for us to do yet, but for now it’s off the table and is ready for true progress for a total redemption. While it may not be your style of car, it will be a sound and safe driving car with a flair.
Dr Marvelus and I will be repairing more of the bodywork, installing a true floor that seals out nature. As well as adding a few styling cues that will help prevent the Scud-Hud from being terribly dated and keeping Mr Funk happy for miles to come.
The project took a turn, Mr Funk didn’t want to spend the greenbacks to properly repair the Hudson body. It was discussed that if he could find a better body with a bit more value it would be in his best interest to do so. He found a very rough 1931 Model A coupe body with a horribly botched chop and quarter repair. This is the body that the car left with. I will do updates in a while.
I am just bringing this up because someone brought it up on the HAMB today.
It’s official folks, we are back building the Dakota kits. The 61-64 F100 kits are shipping and we are hard at it to bring out the rest of the model years within months.
I have put a ton of hours tweaking the design to make this one of the easiest kits you have ever installed. While it looks similar to the last version of the kit, this one is 100% new. Made from 10 gauge Cold Rolled steel, 3/16 HRPO it uses high quality materials for the structural elements similar in grade to what your original frame is made from where others are using inferior grades of steel and having to make up the loss with thicker plate and tube.
I did a complete redesign of the upper control arm pocket which should make the installation much easier and more adaptable to things like air springs. I am going to be working on a coil over version of this in the coming months that won’t require cutting the frame section away. This means an innovative and cost effective control arm set! In the mean time I heard your desires to ditch the slotted upper control arm adjusters in favor of GM like shims. The hardware and a fistful of shims is included in the kit.
I am still working on the lower control arm bumpstop update, those of you who jumped in early will get the update from a dude in a brown truck in the next week or so!
Still quite a few guys think this kit is expensive, yes it isn’t cheap. Good things are rarely cheap. But stay tuned for updates. As the popularity of the kits increase I will be adding features like the aforementioned tubular control arms, air springs, anti-roll bar kits and such. I am also going to be working on production. Stamping and forming dies will speed up production and I will be passing the savings on to you guys.
Need one now? Click the button, fill out the forms and we will ship one to you right away!
Larry V dropped off this 1956 Thunderbird a while back for us to do a power steering upgrade and install a tilt steering column. Very cool little ride he has here, so nice that Rick Amado spotted it in the back room during our open house and had to shoot it for one of the magazines. Lowered with Jamco springs and shocks front and back. Stock running gear and brakes but someone removed the stock hydraulic assisted power steering ram and installed a smaller diameter steering wheel. The smaller wheel made ingress and egress slightly better, but made steering this machine a bit more difficult than it needed to be.
I drew up a couple of ways to put power steering back on this and Larry made the decision to go with Gearhead Cruiser Products and their 605 Power steering conversion and a Flaming River tilt steering column. The PO’s were placed in mid November, hopefully ahead of the holiday rush and before our open house party. There was confusion on the order with Gearhead, somehow I forgot to add the steering gear to the order but Theresa caught the mistake early enough and corrected the issue. I also spoke with Flaming River on the steering column to make sure we got the correct column. When the column arrived just after Christmas, it was for a stock steering gear application. Very nice part but would not work for the situation and not what I had ordered, got an RTA and returned the column for the correct one.
I received the power steering pump and hose kit from Gearhead shortly after receiving the wrong steering column. Decent enough bracket and nice quality hose and fittings.
The correct steering column showed up the just before the new year and the steering gear showed up on January 4th. All the parts here it took Joel just three days to disassemble the original steering system and install the new stuff. Everything went very straightforward and the instructions from Gearhead were very decent. Joel had to create a notch in the fan blades to clear the snout on the power steering pump and the odd way Gearhead attaches the bracket to the engine required a bit of shimming to get the belt to line up. Outside of that there were no other issues of installation. The results are very noticeable, steering effort is very modern and ingress is much more comfortable with the tilt column.
We did have a small leak on the steering box after we got the system bled. A simple tightening of the adjuster stopnut on the sector shaft cured the issue. The little ‘Bird is good to go!
Thank you to Theresa @ Gearhead Cruiser Products for the very professional service. Our customer is sure to be satisfied with the quality of the new power steering.
There is a renewed interest in the K-member legs and have had several requests to update them and also make them work with the 3W and Sedan dropped floor pans. Well, here you go!
These systems are designed to be bolt in and non-intrusive to the stock frames. NO welding or drilling holes are necessary. They pick up on the existing stock transmission bolts and the rear fender bolt holes in front of the axle.
I got around to updating the existing flat floor legs with the missing front center brace. This works with either style of legs.