I have been getting quite a few calls requesting not only the bolt in Dakota based IFS kit, but to bring back the weld-in kit as well.
As you know, the economy is on shaky legs right now and everyone’s finances are in shambles and I am not immune from this. We have a few internal jobs we need to work through to get to these kits. If the response stays strong as it has I will get some motivation to build the fixtures and get this project under way.
There are so many old wives tales inside of the hot rod world. It particularly makes my blood pressure rise a bit to see a semi-mainstream media publication let one of their editorial writer, who happens to own one of the most recognized hot rod name brands, continue to enumerate and lend legitimacy to those myths.
Most of these are pretty harmless, but to state that a grade five bolt is preferred over a grade 8 bolt when mounting suspension components is really dangerous. This from the September 2011 Goodguys Gazette,. written by Brent Vandervort.
In actual fact, Grade 5 bolts are often preferred over Grade 8 . A Grade 8 has a very high tensile strength, but can be brittle. In applications such as suspensions, a very high number of load/unload cycles can produce work hardening, which produces an immediate, or catastrophic failure. It’s often much safer to use a Grade 5 bolt which will bend, thus providing a warning, rather than a Grade 8 bolt breaking without warning. As long as the Grade 5 bolthas been sized large enough to take the expected load, we don’t want to trade toughness (resistance to stress cycles) for the ultimate tensile strength of the Grade 8 fastener.
I have read numerous pages of information regarding this subject because logically it never made sense that a “softer and malleable bolt” GR5 would ever be superior “than a hard and brittle bolt” GR8. What in the hell is the purpose of even making bolt with higher gradings than the 5, why would anyone make a brittle bolt?This makes no logical sense.
And furthermore, the issue of toughness. Why would a bolt of a lower grade be “tougher” and therefore more resistant to stress cycles than one of a higher grade that is stronger in tensile strength? Again, this make no logical sense.
Well, when logic fails the observations of these wives tales something is obviously wrong. Using this reasoning, an even lower grade bolt than a 5 might even be preferred because its even more malleable therefore tougher, cough. I can visit websites like SAE and BoltScience and get true and factual, means tested information without the hotrodder spin.
Please, if you are even remotely interested in this, open and bookmark these websites and tables.
Then there’s fatigue strength. Bend a piece of metal back and forth a bunch of times; it may not break right at first, but it will break eventually. For any given metal, there is a fatigue limit, which is lower than the ultimate load. Below the fatigue limit, bend it as many times as you want and it won’t break; above that, it will eventually break. Again, in general, the higher the ultimate strength, the higher the fatigue limit.
Finally there’s impact loading. This is tested by notching a steel bar and hitting it with a hammer (very precisely, of course). This is the one case where a softer steel might do better, as harder materials tend to be more brittle. However, for most of our applications it’s not that important (unless you’re running a snowplow or trying to snatch a stuck Jeep out with a chain instead of an elastic nylon strap), as the suspension tends to damp out and spread loads below the sharp spike necessary for impact failure. Also, even grade 8 bolts aren’t all that brittle; after they’re heat treated to get the ultimate strength up they’re tempered to bring back the impact strength. Impact strength might be an issue if something’s loose, so that it shifts and bangs around before it hits whatever is stopping it (i.e. the loose bolt).
Conclusion: grade 8 bolts are stronger in virtually any application on a Jeep. Whether you need that strength, and want to pay extra for it, is another issue (though I bought some 5/16 grade 8’s yesterday for $0.60 each; grade 5’s were only ten cents cheaper). There may also be situations where you may want the bolt to fail before the expensive part it’s holding breaks, but that’s another issue. ”
As Billavista said, Grade 8 bolts are stronger. The scientific data supports it and real world testing proves it. Brent is wrong and has done damage to the hot rod community for pushing such an ignorant myth.
I have a challenge for proponents of GR5 being better suited for suspension use to find one or more makes of mass produced cars or trucks that use lower graded hardware on suspension components, take a picture and send them to me or post them here or somewhere public where we can see the evidence.
It is far more important to size and properly torque your hardware than any chemical or mechanical thread lockers can overcome.
This is more of an open thread, I am considering a run at the kits again but this time I want to make some serious changes to the kit and it’s function. It has been over a year since the split and my former partners plan of manufacturing the old kits. He still may at this point and I encourage him to do so. I want to push the fourth generation of the kit since it’s introduction.
Here is an outline of what I plan on doing.
First off, I want to try and unitize the whole kit and make it a bolt in. I have never been a fan of the current crop of bolt in kits, however I do realize there are many people that were turned off of the old kit because they could not weld but still wanted to upgrade their front suspension.
I also want to make the base kit standard with tubular control arms set up for coil overs. You will still be able to use a stock (modified) upper control arm, spindles and rack and pinion. But one of the major issues we had was matching spring rates. There just were not enough choices for the guys trying to jam this IFS into stuff that was considerably lighter than the Dakotas were.
Your input is welcome!
Update: 06/27/20121
I have been measuring and brainstorming with this for a month now. I have some ideas to start with but I am actually kind of disappointed in the response from this. I have been tracking my hits on this thread and others related to the Dakota IFS kit and I will continue with my development in the next few months and see if I get any uptick in interest.
I hear you guys want cheap, well that frankly cannot happen unless the kit is very raw and on the level of some of the low end Mustang II kits already available. That is just not something I want to hang my hat on, so sorry guys it will not be sub $500.00. Bolt in IS going to happen and I have a few ideas firing from neuron to neuron with the occasional flash of brilliance. To make it a bolt in, the stock coil springs are gone. The problem I am having is adapting coil overs to stock control arms for you junkyard scroungers. I did however talk to a company over the Fathers Day weekend about aluminum castings. What I am going to have to do is render the entire kit in Alibre’ and start doing my FEAs and initiate a conversation about pricing. My initial introduction with them is very encouraging and they are casting and machining right here in the USA and Anaheim CA no less!
My backup would be to produce a fabricated or tubular control arm. Considering the fixturing required to do a proper run of tube might put them on par with what the cast aluminum would cost. So I have to consider the fabricated steel units for the base kit. My next hurdle will be spindle, rack and brakes. I might have to introduce them sans those parts and tool up for the rest at a later date.
Bruce had bought a kit from Morrison A&M for his truck and had done the majority of the installation himself. He didn’t realize just how much work those universal kits take to install. So he contacted us to check his work and if it was good to TIG weld everything in place. When he dropped it off, we discussed what had been done and what needed to be done. The frame still needed boxing plates for the front and for the rear plates to be final welded. I offered to build a tubular crossmember system just like the ones we built for our frames and Bruce went for it.
Brian and I set off on a metal flinging frenzy of crossmember removal, cutting, grinding and tube bending. A bit more measuring and I placed the engine and trans then fabricated a nifty set of engine mounts that clear the steering rack and pinion. Thirty plus hours later, we had this!
Brad came to us with this rusty Stude looking for a full frame build.
He knew the original Studebaker frames were fairly flimsy to start with and his had been laying in the mud for a few decades. After sand blasting it was obvious it wouldn’t be up to his standards. We showed him his options and work on other Studes we had here at the time and made some decisions. Mustang II with custom tubular control arms, Bilstein shocks, power rack, complete new frame with tubular center section and a narrowed C4 Corvette rear. He dropped off the original frame for us to use as an armature and the tube stared flying.
The rear axle assembly gathered most of our attention. To narrow one of these this much you lose the ability to shorten or otherwise use the stock spring. We converted the stock shock mounts to take Bilstein Coil overs and had to rebuild the steering rod assembly to clear the frame rails. I totally screwed up and didn’t get any shots of that work, I do have the 3D files of the center mount.
First up was getting the body mounts, frame contour and suspension located. We used one of our existing frame clips for the front end and mocked up the rear suspension to see if we needed any special considerations before laying out the 2X4 box tube. Mid build it was decided that we needed a few more inches of space for the rear wheels, this threw a minor wrench in the works but it all worked out.
New frame with rear installedCorvette rear mountingCNC plasma cut four bar bracketsNew frame from the rearTie rod box bolted in place of the orignial spring mount
Frame done we got the nod to fix the rusty parts and fit the body to the frame. This also gave us a chance to change the body mounts and add some really nice bellypans. Most of the rust was concentrated in the trunk area. Both front footwells needed to be replaced and the superfluous rear seat footwells were also eliminated.
The stock firewall was lacking in style for a build this serious, same for the inner fender wells. Wes tuned up his hammers and knocked down some good stuff.
New firewall and fenderwells
I took on the custom hood hinges. In these shots you might be able to spy the firewall mounted brake power booster, inside is a custom pedal bracket with the option of adding a clutch. Wes got to do some extra detail work, the upper control arm openings got a nifty support and rubber boot.
Custom front opening hood hingesAdjustable hinge mountHood in the open positionControl arm cover
Wrapping up the project before it left us, we got a few drawings from Jim Smith
Jeem's pencil scribblingView from the rear, custom tail lights and mini-finsJust about ready to leave usStaged for the door, Thanks Brad!
This old truck came to us as a “street rodded” finished truck. Decent maroon metallic paint and gray vinyl interior. Didn’t drive worth keeping.
Braking was wishful and the steering was about as good as guiding the truck down the road with the same rope steering you used on your first go-kart. The new owner really liked the truck but wanted to actually drive it, he also wanted to make a few changes like a Tremec TKO five speed and a correct dash instead of the street rod billet affair the truck had. It had to come apart after our initial inspection. It had a very poorly installed Mustang II kit from Speedway. The best we could determine was the kit was actually for a 1935-1940 Ford. Not even close enough to work with the Studebaker. The wheels were inset too far and just looked goofy, the anti-dive was backward, the caster and camber settings were not good and the frame wasn’t even boxed, everything flexed and popped.
Poorly installed Speedway kit, no boxing plates and FUBAR geometryProper alignment wasn't possible so the slotted it to deathLooked even worse after Kelly pressurewashed it down
So “off with it’s head” we chopped out everything and cleaned it back to the bare frame rails. There was a bit of minor repair work to be done but fortunately the stock frame was salvageable. I drew up some boxing plates and a new crossmember system that was two inches wider than a stock Mustang II and adjusted the upper and lower control arm connection points to put the instant center where we needed it and to correct the camber curve for the 1″ longer control arms we were going to build and use. You can also see the tubular frame support and adjustable transmission mount Court bent up and the new Flaming River steering column Kelly installed.
Newly fabricated crossmember and boxing plates installed. If you spot the tube crossmember was custom fit to preserve the stock gas tank
David (the customer) wanted a manual trans, a Tremec TKO ! The stock below floor brake assembly was butchered beyond use and David likes swing pedals better anyway. Kelly fabricated a new sheet metal box to accommodate the odd Studebaker firewall/dash board arrangement. Then he modified an aftermarket brake and clutch assembly provided by the customer to fit.
Brake and clutch pedal boxBrake and clutch pedal with new Flaming River steering column and drop
The rear got some attention too. The truck came to us with a GM Corporate 10 bolt that was a touch too wide, 5 on 5″ bolt pattern and 2.56:1 gears that just wouldn’t work with the overdrive five speed. The springs themselves were shot, so they came out and got rebuilt over at Valley Spring service. New spring mounts were also in order to eliminate the lowering blocks. We also boxed the frame and installed a 2″ deep C-notch.
Rear frame boxed, rebuilt springs and new shackles and hardware.
In the meantime we got the new control arms fabricated and installed. We used a Dodge Dakota front anti-roll bar also. Bilstein shocks and stainless steel brake lines and a bit of clean up on the frame. We shot it with catalyzed enamel paint. The new Currie rear axle got stuffed in as well as a set of fresh Bilstein shocks. New stainless steel brake lines and the fuel system got treated and reinstalled.
Assembled front suspensionCurrie rear axle, Bilstein shocks and Stainless brake lines
Interior wise the street rod dash had to go. Horrid rust sandwich with a gallon of bondo frosting. These are integrated pretty well into the cab. We acquired a donor cab and Kelly cut it out, then carefully trimmed out the offending piece to install the donor dash. While he was busy doing that I designed and built a plenum box to mount under the dash and distribute the cool air from the air conditioning. We also made provisions for the AC unit to draw air in from the cabin instead of hot underhood air. All this got covered up by a nicely fabricated aluminum panel on the engine side.The engine and new transmission got stuffed back in, new through the floor gas pedal from Lokar, the battery box got fabbed, wiring panels got mounted. The cab got undercoated with multiple layers of Second Skin spray on Damplifier. In fact so did the bed and all four fenders.
Engine and accessoriesNew dash panel and underdash
We buttoned up the remaining pieces as soon as the undercoating dried and delivered it to Scott of Steel Dreamz where the paint was attended to and and interior got redone. We hadn’t seen it in a while but were surprised when it showed up at the Studebaker International Drivers Club show. Here is the letter we got from David:
All,Below you will find photos of our 1952 Studebaker PU aka “The Cow Island Express” nearly finished (but shown anyway) in time for the Studebaker International Meet held last week in Glendale, Arizona. The PU was built with loving care by Scott Cawley of Chandler Arizona for Lori and me.
The pickup is entirely modified beginning with a Mustang II/Dodge Dakota style custom front end and suspension (built by Steve Szymanski at Industrial Chassis), GM 383 stroker motor (Tony Sanchez), Tremek TKO 5-speed, 4-wheel discs, Currie 9″ rear end and a custom interior by Doug Stinson at All American Upholstery that includes massive amounts of dynamatt insulation. Scott did the flawless body work and the stunning 2-tone paint which is tweeked current Cadillac CTS-V red metalic and champagne. The gold leaf pin stripes and lettering was applied by Tony Perez as was the freehand lettering. Chuck at Metro Plating did the chrome. Particular note should be made of what I consider the signature piece on the truck; the gold and chrome Studebaker hood piece that Chuck spent rediculous time on. Blow it up and take a good look at it.
Did I mention it also sound terrific. It had Flowmaster 50s on it that sounded too motorboatish. We went to Scottsdale Muffler and had them put on some Flowmaster Hushpower mufflers that are small and look kind of like glasspacks. With the new tips, the sound is deep and throaty.
It drives at least as good as it looks. Nuff said.
Besides Scott and the others above, Eric, Big John, Johnny, John the audio guy, Ty and many others worked on the “Cow Island Express”. If you don’t get the significance of the name, ask Scott or Pam Contes and they’ll tell you.
I mentioned that it’s almost done; it still has a few minor issues and needs like a dead speedometer, door handle, cruise control and the console with stereo and the critical two cupholders.
This unit has a date with Lori and me for Biloxi and “Cruising the Coast” in October.
Oh, yeah, it won First Place in the Modified Trucks category at Glendale.
Dave
Here are the pictures he sent of the finished product.
Howdy folks! Been busy as all get out with Studebakers last week. We had a 1955 Commander post coupe in for a suspension upgrade and rare 1962 Studebaker Gran Turismo in for an engine swap that may turn out to be a fairly serious build.
The 55 was really straightforward. We had previously build a clip for Mr. Desenberg’s 1960 Hawk and realized we had made a mistake in pushing the suspension too far up int the chassis causing problems installing the engine. A problem with the GT I will get to in a minute. I pulled up all my Alibre’ drawings and revised them to not only correct this issue but also refined the design and now we have a production capable clip. The installation took us about 14 hours in total from remove the front sheet metal, saw off the original suspension and install the new suspension. We included a set of our tubular control arms, Granada brake upgrade and power steering rack all for $4000.00.
Mr. Metivier picked up his car just after we took in the rare Gran Turismo. Nice car on the outside. Someone had swapped the stock front sheetmetal for the older and cooler IMHO 53-54 sheetmetal. Brought in by our good customer, www.steeldreamz.com they were looking to swap out the really low mile small block Chevrolet engine and transmission for a more modern LS series and four speed automatic. As is our normal practice to do such a thing we removed the front sheet metal to get better access to the frame. This gives us more room to work and perform a more professional job. Doing this uncovered the previous owners work. They had installed a Fatman Fabrications front subframe. Due to design of this suspension clip, engine installation is nearly impossible without cutting the floor out and building a new trans tunnel and rebuilding the firewall. Sure it gets the car really low without dropped spindles but if it were designed with more forethought, similar results could have been achieved and made engine installation much easier.
This shows just how much of the inner fender needed to be cut away just to clear the upper control arms.
Rather than cut into the body further the installer decided to modify the suspension. Path of least resistance for him I am sure. However this created an entirely new problem, bumpsteer. Not only was the crossmember cut and dropped the rack and pinion was mounted lower off thick straps. Dangerous and crude, very nice combination.
We are still waiting for input from the customer on this one. He want’s to replace his Mercedes Benz daily driver with this car. This is something we can do for him, just not with this mess of a front end.
What is desired is a car that will drive very well, handle and brake and last as a new car would. What we would very much like to do is replace the Fatman clip with our kit. Our tubular control arms which are not only stronger but upgrade the ball joints and use OEM rubber control arm bushings for a much better ride without the polyurethane squeak and harshness. A set of Bilstein shocks and matched springs. A Flaming River variable assist rack and pinion would definitely set off the steering feel. And if there is any budget left, we would really like to rebuild the rear suspension with a torque arm system and Bilstein coil overs in the rear.
With the economy the way it is, most businesses are lucky to be in business right now. We are very fortunate to be one of those that is doing as well as could be expected.
To get this blog rolling, I wanted to state some of the things that have happened and what is to come. In 2007, Adam Young Fabrication became a partner and added his dropped axle service to our corporation. His intent was to expand the product line and push forward our Dodge Dakota based suspension kits leaving me to do more product development and custom fabrication. We did produce prototypes of our new Gen III coil over suspension kit and got two of them on the road. First up was a complete chassis under the Dynacorn 53 Chevrolet pickup. Second was a local car, 1941 Packard Sedan and both were able to push beyond our customers expectations in drive, comfort and handling.
Due to unforeseen circumstances Adam relocated to Seattle Washington at the end of 2008, this put a huge dampener on the business and product development. We came to the solution of splitting the business this year. Adam has been slow to get his new fabrication shop running but the end goal is for him to produce the current product line and start in on the new complete coil over Gen III suspension. With a completion date of September 09 for his new shop, he will also produce the standard frames and chassis for 1948-1956 Ford and 1947-1959 GM trucks from his location as (tbd) Adam Young Fabrication by the fall of this year.
Currently we have parred down the product line to match sales. We only offer the basic crossmember kits for 1948-1964 Ford trucks and 1955-1959 GM trucks. But our focus here at Industrial Chassis has changed.
Our new focus is centered around custom fabrication and suspension tuning. There are far too many hot rods and customs that have been on the road that do not perform as the owners prefer, and it is our goal to step in and resolve these issues. Drawing on my nearly 20 years of experience building, maintaining and repairing pre1965 cars and trucks, I can pinpoint a solution and perform the necessary repair or re-engineering needed.
Of course we will continue to offer our services for custom chassis fabrication. We will add to our services, suspension design and installation, custom frames and crossmembers, custom exhaust, turbo charging, fuel and brake line installation, custom fuel tanks and engine bracketry, brake pedal and steering setups. Anything that you as a hot rod or custom owner don’t feel comfortable doing yourself or if you just happen to like our mechanical style, we are here for you, our customer.
Apperance wise we are going to do some remodeling of the shop. The re-installation of a showroom and customers lounge. A service bay where you can bring your nicely finished vehicles and keep them out of the heavy fabrication area. New equipment and software to not only diagnose an issue but to speed up the process to repair or fabricate. Also look for new apparel and other merchandise to support your local hot rod shop.
Our reputation was built on quality parts and knowledgeable service, something that will not change.
With the economy the way it is, most businesses are lucky to be in business right now. We are very fortunate to be one of those that is doing as well as could be expected.
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